Conversations With Bob
The following is some correspondance between me and a TBM apologist named Bob the Anti-Anti Mormon who runs the blog "promormon.blogspot.com".
What initiated this conversation was a comment that I had made on his blog about his views concerning the evangelical Christian, Shawn McCraney, and his television show, "Heart of the Matter." At first, I was of the impression that Bob was being overly critical of Shawn's responses to honest inquiries and corrections, but as I learned more about the story, I realized that Shawn is just as guilty of playing the "I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say" game as die-hard Mormons are.
Bob, I hope you don't mind my posting this! Let me know if that's the case.
From: Al Jordan
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:41 AM
To: rvukich
Subject: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Hi Bob, me again.
Thanks for your email concerning my comment on your previous post.
This recent post of yours sheds some much needed light on Shawn's behavior,
and it's actually helped to somewhat alter my opinion of him.
He invites criticism, then kicks it in the shin when it knocks on his door.
Very childish indeed.
He obviously has an agenda...you're right about that. I won't defend him.
But I also won't defend mormonism for doing pretty much the same thing.
Shawn asks for donations, while the LDS church makes tithing a requirement
to get into heaven.
Shawn waves away facts that don't support his views, but so does the
church,
even more so if you ask me.
In the end, both parties is striving to do what they think is right,
allowing the ends to justify the means.
Sometimes I wonder if the world would be a better place without religions
and all the zealots that come with them.
Posted by Al Jordan to Anti-Mormons
http://promormon.blogspot.com/2006/11/it-doesnt-matter-at-heart.html> at
11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
From: "Robert Vukich"
To: "'Al Jordan'"
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:56:32 -0700
I responded on line. I really appreciate your comments. And though I
probably sound stupid the way I said it three times in my response online,
I
truly see your point.
Thanks again. Well said.
Bob
From: Al Jordan
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:29 AM
To: rvukich
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Hi Bob! Sorry for the delay in responding...I don't check this email very
often.
I went back and listened to all the previous episodes of "heart of the
matter" online and finally came across the one with your phone call. I
thought it was a good one! Shawn wasn't as argumentative with you as he can
be with other pro-mormons.
Do you still watch the show, or have you since boycotted it?
I don't necessarily agree with everything Shawn says on his program, or the
way he deals with some of his callers, but I think he makes some good
points.
I'm in the process of leaving the church and while I'm finally past the
"anger" phase of my recovery, I'm still interested in opposing views and
opinions, so I'll probably keep watching.
Thanks for writing me back...good luck to you!
AJ
From: "Robert Vukich"
To: "'Al Jordan'"
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 23:19:40 -0700
Hi Al,
Thanks again for the notes. I am not boycotting or anything like that. If
I have time, I will watch. My frustration is that it is just so grossly out
of the norm for what Mormonism is. No big deal.
Sorry to hear you plan to leave the Church. From your responses I am
guessing it is not a Mormon vs. Christian thing.
Honestly, I did not have an opinion about the Church when I was 18. I had
been baptized at 16, was not active, and really did not know how the Church
was going to relate to my life. My best friend has since gone on to become
a minister at a Four Square Church up in Idaho. But at 18 I started to
study LDS doctrine, and compared it to the things of Evangelical and also
the anti-Mormons teachings. Frankly, I came to realize that LDS doctrine,
regardless of physical evidence, is just more in line with the Bible. I
believe there is some physical support of the Church as well, but I would
not really pay attention to it one way or the other, because there can
always be questions raised about any philosophical point of view. On the
other hand, there is no way to explain things like the LDS doctrine's of
plural gods and the exaltation of man, the role of prophets and the role of
agency.
I look forward to hearing more from you as you have time. Good luck.
Bob
Hey Bob,
You're right, my decision to leave isn't based on a conversion to "mainstream" Christianity. I was born and raised in the church and believed in it, but only because that's all I'd ever known. I didn't go on a mission at age 19, not because of any unbelief, but because I felt unworthy and didn't want to cheat anyone out of an otherwise spiritual experience. I felt that I would be a disappointment to the Lord if I lied about my "worthiness" in order to go on a mission.
Instead, I enlisted in the Army and served a total of 4 1/2 years on active duty and 6 on reserve status with the National Guard. This gave me an opportunity to explore different parts of the world outside of Mormondom and make friends with a myriad faiths and backgrounds that were different than my own.
But I was still a believer.
I married in the temple, had some kids, went to church every Sunday and tried to fulfill my callings as best I could.
Then something happened. I can't pinpoint any event or trigger in particular, but none of it seemed to matter anymore. I wasn't getting anything worthwhile out of church attendance. I actually started to resent going, so I started to skip out on the other meetings after Sacrament and avoided any additional assignments such as home teaching.
It may be that the older I get, the more valuable my spare time is to me. You know how the church likes to keep people so busy. For an organization that claims to support the strengthening of the family, it was taking me away from my family...and that really started to bother me.
So maybe I'm selfish...I won't dispute that.
It wasn't until I stumbled on what some consider "anti-mormon" material on the internet. I remember that distinctly. It was the whole "men on the moon" debacle. At first I couldn't believe what I was reading...a true prophet of God couldn't have possibly believed or taught something as ridiculous as that!
So I began my research. Moon men led to Blood Atonement which led to the temple's Masonic origins which led to Joseph Smith's ties to the occult which led to the facts behind the "translation" of the plates which led to polygamy which led to the DNA issue...on and on. There seemed to be no end to amount of evidence against the church, much of which doesn't even come from sources without the church, but within it!
I started to doubt, so I sought answers from the web's best mormon apologists...you know, FARMS, FAIR, Jeff Lindsay. Their answers seemed flimsy and speculative at best.
Then my doubt morphed into unbelief and I began my journey of recovery. It really is amazing how similar this experience is to that of losing a loved one...all the same steps, or "phases" are there: Denial, Bargaining, Anger, Acceptance.
I think I'm finally over the anger phase, but now that I no longer accept the church as being true anymore, I'm constantly seeking new information about religious truth, even from all the sources that I once were thought "taboo".
I'm interested in just plain old Bible thumping Christianity, but not enough to just dive right into it I guess. I'm now suspicious of every religion. So I have to ask myself: do I even need religion in my life? Does anyone?
The most difficult part of all this is that just about everyone in my immediate and extended family are all TBMs. I don't even feel like I can talk to anyone about anything for fear of causing an argument or animosity between us.
Well, there's my story. You didn't ask for it, but I gave it to you anyway. I hope you don't mind. You seem like a really great guy and I appreciate your understanding.
I do find it extremely interesting how you said you found truth in the church even after seriously researching it. Had I known the things about it that I do now, I would have never stuck with it for as long as I did. And I think that most members, be they newer converts or "cradle to the grave" types, are just as in the dark about these issues as I was.
I can no longer put my trust or faith in a church that attempts to sterilize its own history in order to gain or retain members. In light of the evidence, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young just aren't the great prophetic men the church wants us to believe they were.
Okay, I'll stop now. I welcome any comments you may have.
AJ
What initiated this conversation was a comment that I had made on his blog about his views concerning the evangelical Christian, Shawn McCraney, and his television show, "Heart of the Matter." At first, I was of the impression that Bob was being overly critical of Shawn's responses to honest inquiries and corrections, but as I learned more about the story, I realized that Shawn is just as guilty of playing the "I'm right and you're wrong no matter what you say" game as die-hard Mormons are.
Bob, I hope you don't mind my posting this! Let me know if that's the case.
From: Al Jordan
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:41 AM
To: rvukich
Subject: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Hi Bob, me again.
Thanks for your email concerning my comment on your previous post.
This recent post of yours sheds some much needed light on Shawn's behavior,
and it's actually helped to somewhat alter my opinion of him.
He invites criticism, then kicks it in the shin when it knocks on his door.
Very childish indeed.
He obviously has an agenda...you're right about that. I won't defend him.
But I also won't defend mormonism for doing pretty much the same thing.
Shawn asks for donations, while the LDS church makes tithing a requirement
to get into heaven.
Shawn waves away facts that don't support his views, but so does the
church,
even more so if you ask me.
In the end, both parties is striving to do what they think is right,
allowing the ends to justify the means.
Sometimes I wonder if the world would be a better place without religions
and all the zealots that come with them.
Posted by Al Jordan to Anti-Mormons
http://promormon.blogspot.com/2006/11/it-doesnt-matter-at-heart.html> at
11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
From: "Robert Vukich"
To: "'Al Jordan'"
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2006 13:56:32 -0700
I responded on line. I really appreciate your comments. And though I
probably sound stupid the way I said it three times in my response online,
I
truly see your point.
Thanks again. Well said.
Bob
From: Al Jordan
Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:29 AM
To: rvukich
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Hi Bob! Sorry for the delay in responding...I don't check this email very
often.
I went back and listened to all the previous episodes of "heart of the
matter" online and finally came across the one with your phone call. I
thought it was a good one! Shawn wasn't as argumentative with you as he can
be with other pro-mormons.
Do you still watch the show, or have you since boycotted it?
I don't necessarily agree with everything Shawn says on his program, or the
way he deals with some of his callers, but I think he makes some good
points.
I'm in the process of leaving the church and while I'm finally past the
"anger" phase of my recovery, I'm still interested in opposing views and
opinions, so I'll probably keep watching.
Thanks for writing me back...good luck to you!
AJ
From: "Robert Vukich"
To: "'Al Jordan'"
Subject: RE: [Anti-Mormons] 11/09/2006 06:41:01 AM
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2006 23:19:40 -0700
Hi Al,
Thanks again for the notes. I am not boycotting or anything like that. If
I have time, I will watch. My frustration is that it is just so grossly out
of the norm for what Mormonism is. No big deal.
Sorry to hear you plan to leave the Church. From your responses I am
guessing it is not a Mormon vs. Christian thing.
Honestly, I did not have an opinion about the Church when I was 18. I had
been baptized at 16, was not active, and really did not know how the Church
was going to relate to my life. My best friend has since gone on to become
a minister at a Four Square Church up in Idaho. But at 18 I started to
study LDS doctrine, and compared it to the things of Evangelical and also
the anti-Mormons teachings. Frankly, I came to realize that LDS doctrine,
regardless of physical evidence, is just more in line with the Bible. I
believe there is some physical support of the Church as well, but I would
not really pay attention to it one way or the other, because there can
always be questions raised about any philosophical point of view. On the
other hand, there is no way to explain things like the LDS doctrine's of
plural gods and the exaltation of man, the role of prophets and the role of
agency.
I look forward to hearing more from you as you have time. Good luck.
Bob
Hey Bob,
You're right, my decision to leave isn't based on a conversion to "mainstream" Christianity. I was born and raised in the church and believed in it, but only because that's all I'd ever known. I didn't go on a mission at age 19, not because of any unbelief, but because I felt unworthy and didn't want to cheat anyone out of an otherwise spiritual experience. I felt that I would be a disappointment to the Lord if I lied about my "worthiness" in order to go on a mission.
Instead, I enlisted in the Army and served a total of 4 1/2 years on active duty and 6 on reserve status with the National Guard. This gave me an opportunity to explore different parts of the world outside of Mormondom and make friends with a myriad faiths and backgrounds that were different than my own.
But I was still a believer.
I married in the temple, had some kids, went to church every Sunday and tried to fulfill my callings as best I could.
Then something happened. I can't pinpoint any event or trigger in particular, but none of it seemed to matter anymore. I wasn't getting anything worthwhile out of church attendance. I actually started to resent going, so I started to skip out on the other meetings after Sacrament and avoided any additional assignments such as home teaching.
It may be that the older I get, the more valuable my spare time is to me. You know how the church likes to keep people so busy. For an organization that claims to support the strengthening of the family, it was taking me away from my family...and that really started to bother me.
So maybe I'm selfish...I won't dispute that.
It wasn't until I stumbled on what some consider "anti-mormon" material on the internet. I remember that distinctly. It was the whole "men on the moon" debacle. At first I couldn't believe what I was reading...a true prophet of God couldn't have possibly believed or taught something as ridiculous as that!
So I began my research. Moon men led to Blood Atonement which led to the temple's Masonic origins which led to Joseph Smith's ties to the occult which led to the facts behind the "translation" of the plates which led to polygamy which led to the DNA issue...on and on. There seemed to be no end to amount of evidence against the church, much of which doesn't even come from sources without the church, but within it!
I started to doubt, so I sought answers from the web's best mormon apologists...you know, FARMS, FAIR, Jeff Lindsay. Their answers seemed flimsy and speculative at best.
Then my doubt morphed into unbelief and I began my journey of recovery. It really is amazing how similar this experience is to that of losing a loved one...all the same steps, or "phases" are there: Denial, Bargaining, Anger, Acceptance.
I think I'm finally over the anger phase, but now that I no longer accept the church as being true anymore, I'm constantly seeking new information about religious truth, even from all the sources that I once were thought "taboo".
I'm interested in just plain old Bible thumping Christianity, but not enough to just dive right into it I guess. I'm now suspicious of every religion. So I have to ask myself: do I even need religion in my life? Does anyone?
The most difficult part of all this is that just about everyone in my immediate and extended family are all TBMs. I don't even feel like I can talk to anyone about anything for fear of causing an argument or animosity between us.
Well, there's my story. You didn't ask for it, but I gave it to you anyway. I hope you don't mind. You seem like a really great guy and I appreciate your understanding.
I do find it extremely interesting how you said you found truth in the church even after seriously researching it. Had I known the things about it that I do now, I would have never stuck with it for as long as I did. And I think that most members, be they newer converts or "cradle to the grave" types, are just as in the dark about these issues as I was.
I can no longer put my trust or faith in a church that attempts to sterilize its own history in order to gain or retain members. In light of the evidence, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young just aren't the great prophetic men the church wants us to believe they were.
Okay, I'll stop now. I welcome any comments you may have.
AJ
posted by Al Jordan | 8:09 AM
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